Building Future-Proof Cultures: Embracing Diversity and Navigating Change

in conversation with anthropologist Jitske Kramer

D.B.: Good morning, Jitske! It’s truly a pleasure to have you here. Now, I have to ask, as an anthropologist, did your parents really worry about you studying that, fearing it might lead to… unemployment?

J.K.: (laughs warmly) Good morning! Yes, they absolutely did! In their defense, the perception was that anthropology was the fastest route to unemployment. But as I’ve found, that’s far from the truth! It’s an incredibly vital academic study because it delves into how people shape cultures and how cultures, in turn, shape people. That’s really at the core of who we are as human beings.

D.B.: That’s a fantastic distinction. And today, you’re focusing on how we build “future-proof cultures.” What’s driving this quest for you? What concerns you most about the world we’re creating right now?

J.K.: My biggest concern is that we’re inadvertently creating a world where it’s not truly safe for diversity, and where we aren’t adequately prepared for change in a positive way. My journey, my quest, is to understand how we can create cultures that are more inclusive, truly safe for diversity, and genuinely ready for transformation. As an anthropologist, that means traveling the world to observe and learn how different people and cultures navigate these challenges.

D.B.: So, when you enter an organization as an anthropologist, what’s the first thing you notice? Is it the meticulously drawn organizational charts, or something else entirely?

J.K.: That’s a great question! When I first enter an organization, it truly feels like stepping into a village. People will often show me their organizational charts, and those are useful, don’t get me wrong. They tell you where the formal power lies, how things are supposed to be organized. It’s helpful information. But here’s the thing: we think in those charts, but we don’t act on them.

D.B.: Oh? So, what do we act on then? Spill the beans!

J.K.: (leans in, conspiratorially) We act on relationships. This is the true organizational chart! Think about it: it’s where people know there’s bribery going on but don’t say anything, or where we have connections because we’re good friends. If we need something for a project, we don’t necessarily look at the chart; we think, “Oh, you helped me out last time, so I’ll help you out this time.” People act on relationships, and that’s why we need some rules and bureaucracy to ensure fairness. But, and this is crucial, not too much! Because then it becomes unfair when we can no longer see the people behind the rules.

Ultimately, whether in organizations or any group, we need to take care of deep human needs. We want to belong, we want a logo, a mission, a story to be part of. We want true reciprocity – a fair give and take. If I put all my time into your organization, do I get the money back? Or, even more importantly, the respect? If I offer my ideas, what do I get in return? And finally, we need fair power distribution. There will always be ranking, we’re hierarchical beings, but we want to feel that the ranking is just. These are universal human needs, and every culture, every organization, finds its own unique answers to them.

The Dynamics of Culture: Values, Norms, and Design

D.B.: That’s a fascinating perspective, viewing an organization as a culture shaped by these fundamental human needs. Can you give us the “management summary of the management summary of anthropology” on how cultures are shaped? What’s the core mechanism at play?

J.K.: (chuckles) Alright, here’s the distilled essence, the real core of it all:

First, and this is fundamental: nothing has meaning of itself. There are facts, yes, but we are the ones who give meaning to them. And together, as a group, we decide what we think is important, what is valuable, and what is not. That’s where values emerge.

Second, once you have these values, you absolutely must act on them. If you say “respect” is a value, or “customer orientation,” you need to see those values reflected in behavior. This leads to the development of norms and rules. Some are very strict – like laws that land you in prison if you break them. Others are enforced by the group, making it very clear you’re “out” if you don’t conform.

Third, once we have our values and norms, we start designing the world around us. We solidify what we feel is important into our procedures, the very buildings we work in, how we do things, our financial structures, and our power dynamics. This culture shaping is intimately tied to power, because the questions always are: Who defines what’s valuable? Who gets to set the norms and rules? And who decides where to spend the money, and where not to? People shape cultures, and cultures shape people. And once we have that coherent story – that shared understanding – where I know that you know that I know that I’m safe if I apply, then it feels good.

The “Harry” Effect: Embracing Diverse Views

D.B.: That’s a powerful framework. It sounds like everyone needs to be very aligned for a strong culture. But what about when someone has a genuinely different perspective? You hinted at this earlier with your “Harry” example.

J.K.: Ah, Harry! (smiles knowingly) Harry is that little bird hanging upside down, the one with a view that’s different from the majority. Our usual, first reflex is to say something like, “Oh, come on, get with the program, act normal!” But that’s precisely what we shouldn’t do. The correct response should be, “Whoa, man, what do you see?” Because if there are no Harrys, there is no innovation. Diversity isn’t something we try to achieve; it’s a given. There will always be someone with a different view.

D.B.: So, if we ignore Harry, or make him feel unwelcome to voice his perspective, what happens to the culture?

J.K.: If we don’t create a safe space for Harry’s perspective, he might not say it directly, but he’ll still hold that view. He might resort to making jokes, becoming sarcastic, or, and this is key, only talking to others who share his idea. I call that gossiping! (laughs) You’re only really bad at gossiping if you find yourself gossiping with someone who has a differentview – then it’s actually a conversation!

If we don’t tackle this, it escalates. You get poor communication, disruption, and ultimately, it leads to strikes, even wars within organizations, or withdrawal. This isn’t a strong culture. Safety drops, and the quality of decision-making plummets. We need to make it safe for different views because that’s the given. That’s how we create strong cultures that are safe for diversity and therefore truly ready for change. It boils down to two core processes: interaction and decision-making. Leaders must focus on ensuring excellent interaction and perfect decision-making. Interaction addresses the diversity question – who can join which interaction? And once everyone is at the table with their views, decision-making is about power, who can decide what to do?

Bullet Point Meetings vs. Campfire Conversations

D.B.: That brings us to how we interact. You draw a really interesting distinction between “bullet point meetings” and “campfire conversations.” Can you explain the difference and why both are important, but one is often overlooked?

J.K.: Absolutely. There are so many types of interactions, but I like to focus on these two. First, we have transactional interactions, which we commonly call meetings. These are important! We need them for “you do this, I do that” – for getting tasks done, for efficiency. You need to make these very effective, like ticking off bullet points.

But here’s the crucial part: people don’t change through transactional interactions. That’s not where cultures are shaped. Cultures are shaped through transformational interactions. And those are very different. I often use metaphors to describe them, because it’s a difficult concept to put into words. A transformational interaction is like a campfire.

D.B.: A campfire? Tell me more! I’m picturing s’mores and sharing stories.

J.K.: Exactly! I assume everyone here has been at a campfire. If not, make sure you go! At a campfire, you have these moments where you suddenly share your deep thoughts, your dreams, your nightmares. You might say, “Do you remember when grandmother…” It’s about these intimate, open campfire conversations. And they can be truly transformational if I allow myself to share my thoughts, my heart, my feelings with you, and you do the same. We have the courage at a campfire to be vulnerable, knowing that what is said might change our minds and how we feel.

So, on one hand, we have our “bullet point meetings” – efficient and necessary. On the other, we need “campfire conversations” – where we allow ourselves to share thoughts and feelings, to look into the future, and collaboratively decide what we truly value, what rules to set, and how we want to create and design our world.

D.B.: That’s a powerful image. Do you feel, generally speaking, that organizations have enough campfire conversations?

J.K.: The happy few have enough. But many will say, “We could do a little bit better!” And then there are those who say, “I have no idea what you’re talking about!” (chuckles)

The reality is, we desperately need more campfire conversations. When I traveled from Tunisia in the desert, where it was cold, people sat together in the evening, and those conversations were happening organically. Our organizational structures, however, are often not designed for good conversations; they’re designed to show power or how big a table we have.

Navigating Liminality: The Space In-Between

D.B.: You mentioned that culture isn’t static, it changes. But sometimes, we need a really significant transformation. You speak of three stages of change and a concept called “liminality.” Could you elaborate on what that means for organizations?

J.K.: Yes, cultures aren’t immutable; they change anyway, through every micro-decision and interaction. But sometimes, we need more – a truly big transformation. Let’s say an organization needs a new focus: more innovation, more customer orientation, more accountability. We can’t just wait for it to happen; we need to speed it up.

In business, we’re often trained to define A and B, and then create a long plan to get there, with a big kickoff session. But people don’t change in two stages; they change in three. This is what you learn when you travel the world. Big transformations involve:

1. Separation: A moment, or a leader, or an event that signals, “It won’t be like it was anymore.” Our minds begin to understand that we’re moving into a social space where what used to be normal and valuable might be different. Think of a value shift, like moving from a production-oriented world to a life-centered one. Bang! It will be different.
2. Transition (Liminal Space): This is the incredibly tough phase. It’s what anthropologists call the “liminal space” – the “space in between”. There was something, but it’s no longer. So, if the old values aren’t valuable anymore, what are the new ones? How should I act, what skills do I need? There’s a lot of chaos and uncertainty, and naturally, we don’t like that. We ask leaders for certainty, for rules. But then when leaders give rules, we often resist them.
3. Incorporation: Eventually, the new values, behaviors, and structures are integrated.

D.B.: So, this “liminal space” sounds like quite the challenge for organizations, especially when we crave certainty.

J.K.: It is a challenge, and it’s vital. True transformation means letting go of what we’re used to and moving into something new. Culture shaping is all about power, because it might shift financial structures, demand new behaviors and skills, and some leaders might not be able to adapt. It’s chaotic. Some people love it, some don’t. We need skills to deal with anxiety and uncertainty. How good are your own anxiety and uncertainty skills? And if you’re a leader, how good are you at ensuring others are okay with the chaos?

From an anthropological perspective, looking at how different cultures deal with big changes, we see that we need rituals – rites of passage. That’s how we, as human beings, navigate major transformations. I learned this profoundly when I was in Togo.

D.B.: You went to Togo? That sounds like quite an experience! What did you learn about rituals there?

J.K.: Yes, it was quite an experience. A long story for another time! But to give you a glimpse, I went to this Voodoo Festival wanting to learn. I thought I would be an observer, but the priest I was connected with gathered seven other priests, and they put me through five ceremonies in 12 days, some lasting 15 hours. Usually, you go through those ceremonies over a lifetime! It was incredibly intense.

I knew that in the confrontation with such “otherness,” I would mainly meet myself. And that’s the whole point of using rituals. One moment, after coming out of the forest into the village, they made me sit down, cross-legged, with a bucket and a goat placed on my lap. I was only wearing a piece of cloth. The goat looked at me and went “Baaah,” and it felt like a baby. I realized it was going to be offered, killed. There was another goat killed too, but I hadn’t held that one, so it didn’t affect me the same way. This one, though, got under my skin. I thought, “Well, I don’t really want it.”

I sat there for an hour – though I didn’t know the duration at the time – and had the most profound conversations with myself. There was a dove that would also be killed, but I didn’t care about the dove. I started asking myself: Do I have a hierarchy in my mind? Some lives can be taken, some not? Do I have the same with people? Am I okay with others offering things to me? What do I ask others to offer? What do I ask them to sacrifice? How do I shape my world, what do I think is important?

I didn’t want the goat to be killed, so I asked the priest, “Can we save it?” He just looked at me and said, “Nope.” I continued my internal debate, thinking, “I really don’t want a living thing killed for my happiness. I don’t want it.” I eat meat, but this feels, and I know it will be like a barbecue, but I don’t want it. It was a value shift. So I asked for a time out and they did it so everything stopped the music stopped everything I said can we save the goat? And I couldn’t understand the priests, but I could hear them like what? And I discussed and I said well we could But it’s like this, you know, we have all the spirits here all the ancestors everything from the east to the west to the north to the to the South, everyone is here, and we promised them food and drinks. So it’s very easy, it’s either the goat or us, it’s your choice. Let’s kill the goat. Then I said, “Can you please kill it nicely?” Which, of course, is a silly thing to say, “kill it nicely,” but for me, that was a space to rethink my “normal.” I genuinely changed my value; I don’t eat meat now. I still eat fish, which is puzzling, but that’s us human beings.

D.B.: Jitske, that’s an incredibly personal and vivid account. It’s almost… unsettling, but in a way that forces you to really confront your own values. And you changed your diet because of it? That’s quite a testament to the power of that experience!

J.K.: (nods slowly, thoughtfully) It really was. If we want to transform and truly change, it’s about putting new values here (gestures to her heart) and then acting on them – reorganizing your life, redesigning, making different choices. But you need time for that. You can’t achieve that in ordinary clock time. Ordinary clock time is good for meetings, for bullet points. We have tons of that, don’t we? Back-to-back online meetings, just ‘doof, doof, doof.’ We don’t have time for anything else! But only in magical time, extraordinary things happen. That’s what I call campfire conversations. And we need rituals – rituals that give us this space to rethink what we think is normal, so we can redesign our world.

D.B.: That’s such a profound shift in perspective. So, what are your final “golden questions” – not bullet points, but questions – for us to take away and ask ourselves, particularly as HR professionals and leaders building future-proof cultures?

J.K.: (leans forward, earnest) Precisely, questions. These are the ones I urge you to ask yourselves and truly answer:

• Do you have enough head and heart space to rethink and establish transformation? Are you creating the mental and emotional room for real, deep change in your organizations?
• Is there enough space for doubt? Can people openly question assumptions and express uncertainty without fear of judgment?
• Do you have the courage to go deep? Are you willing to explore uncomfortable truths, embrace vulnerability, and delve into the less obvious aspects of your culture?
• Do you ask for other views, especially from the “Harrys”? Are you actively seeking out and truly listening to those divergent perspectives, knowing they are the seeds of innovation?
• What do we need to leave behind to make space for something new? What old patterns, beliefs, or behaviors are holding you back, and are you brave enough to let them go?

Cultural transformation means establishing new collective patterns of thought, belief, and behavior. Culture isn’t just an extra paragraph after a strategic plan; it’s the very heart of what we are. And once we have these new patterns, then we must redesign our world – our “bricks, bytes, and power structures.” That’s often where the real struggle kicks in, but it’s essential work.

I truly believe we can and should build future-proof cultures. If I have any say in how that unfolds, I hope we find ways to create cultures where we are genuinely open to different views, especially those from the “Harrys,” because diversity is a given. And from that openness, we can then decide what we truly want, which values, which rules, which behaviorsmand then courageously design and redesign our world, fixing what’s broken because it no longer fits. This is all up to us, because people shape cultures through every interaction and every decision. So, what you think, what you say, and what you do matters. Because together, we shape the future we want. I’m counting on you all, with all the power you have. Safe travels!

D.B.: Jitske, this is incredibly insightful and thought-provoking. Thank you so much for challenging us, for sharing your wisdom, and for reminding us of the profound human element in organizational culture. It’s been a true honor.

J.K.: The honor is all mine. Thank you!